NBC-TV Show No. 7, October 29,1960, 9:30-10:30 p.m.

Moderator: Frank McGee, NBC News.
Producer: Ted Ayers.
Director: Bob Priaulg.
Guests: Senator Thruston B. Morton, Robert Finch, Senator Henry M. Jackson, Gov. Abraham B. Ribicoff.

     McGEE. Chairman Jackson, how is the Democratic campaign going?
     Senator JACKSON. Senator Kennedy and Senator Johnson are well ahead now, and we're going to win on November 8.
     McGEE. Chairman Morton, how about the Republican campaign?
     Senator MORTON. I disagree. We're coming into the final stretch. We're passing everyone, and we're going to win on November 8.
     McGEE. Governor Ribicoff, what do Democrats believe to be the primary issue of the campaign?
     Governor RIBICOFF. People, their survival and well being.
     McGEE. Well, Mr. Finch, in the Republican view, what is the big issue in the campaign ?
     Mr. FINCH. The overriding issue is who is best qualified to lead the free world and keep a strong economy here in the United States.
 (Music theme. Titles on screen: "The Campaign and the Candidates," presented by * * *¹ in association with NBC News.)
     McGEE. Saturday, October 29-9 days to election day.
     I'm Frank McGee, NBC News.
     And we are in Washington for a freewheeling debate on the 1960 presidential campaign - a debate between four men who have played key roles in shaping the campaign carried out by the candidates.
     That is, most of us are in Washington. One thousand six hundred and seven miles away, Senator Henry Jackson, chairman of the Democratic National Committee, is in the studios of Station WOAL, San Antonio, Tex. - the 23d State he has traveled, so far, on behalf of presidential candidate John Kennedy.
     Senator Thruston Morton, chairman of the Republican National Committee, is touching briefly at home base in Washington after traveling 38 States on behalf of presidential candidate, Richard Nixon.
     Connecticut Gov. Abraham Ribicoff, a close adviser to Kennedy, will team with Chairman Jackson for the Democrats, and Robert Finch, campaign director for Nixon, will team with Chairman Morton for the Republicans.
     And their debate is coming up.

     McGEE. This program has not been rehearsed and we have a minimum of rules to restrain us.
     Each team will be allowed a 2-minute opening statement and a 2½ minute closing summation.
     In between, both teams are free to challenge or refute the other on any subject related to the presidential campaign
     Now I will call on the debaters in order but each will be permitted to defer to his partner for that response if he chooses.
     The responses will be limited to 2½ minutes each but all participants agreed they will be better if they are shorter.
     The Republican team won the toss of a coin and has elected to speak in the favored last position. Therefore they will offer the first opening statement so that the Democrats can have the last word in the first exchange.
     For their opening statement, here is the chairman of the Republican National Committee, Senator Thruston Morton.
     Senator MORTON. Well, as I have traveled this country, I find that the compelling issue is the same as the compelling issue of 1952 and 1956 - which men, which team can best lead this country, can best assure our position of leadership in the free world, which can best lead us as we go into the dynamic 1960's. I admit I'm a bit partisan, but I think that the scales are clearly tipped in favor of the Republican team. The timing of this campaign has been an interesting one. I think it's growing to quite a climax. I think the American people are in for a very exciting 10 days - the next 10 days that are ahead of us. I - both candidates at the head of the ticket are aggressive, articulate, energetic men, and I think we're going to see some excitement. I frankly think that we are - moved into the lead and that the timing which Dick Nixon has always shown in his campaign - campaigns in the past is going to be in evidence. I am very much impressed, as I get around the country, by the fact that people are worried, intensely worried, by some of the lack of sophistication as shown by Senator Kennedy, especially in the matter of foreign affairs. And this, I think, will be a compelling issue; and this, I think will influence. many voters as they go to the polls election day.
     McGEE. We return to San Antonio for the Democratic team's opening statement from Democratic National Chairman, Senator Henry Jackson.
     Senator JACKSON. As we see it, the key issue in this campaign is that we are doing something less than our best at home and abroad. At home, we are in the beginning of a recession. Mr. Nixon and the Republican leaders will deny it. All you have to do, however, is to read the Wall ,Street Journal every day, and you will get ample evidence in support of it. On top of all that, of course, is the cold, hard truth that steel production is hovering around 53 percent of capacity. We have millions of people out of work. All of the indicators on the economic field are pointing downward. This, ladies and gentlemen, at a time when we should be working around the clock in order to meet the most ruthless competitors this Nation and the free world ever faced - the Soviet Union and Communist China. We have a lot of problems at home that we need to solve besides the basic economic one. We need to do a better job in education. We need to do a better job in the field of medical care. And we need to do a better job in the conservation of our resources. All of these things are important because of the image that it leaves with other people throughout the world, especially the uncommitted nations of Asia and Africa. We're not doing the job abroad. We're not doing the job in the field of national security that we should be doing. It's a cold, hard truth that our power in relation to the Soviet Union has been declining during this past Nixon administration. The truth is, the Soviets were first to get the ICBM, first to put a satellite into orbit, first to hit the moon, first to take a picture of the backside of the moon. Our prestige has been hit. All I need to do is recite a list of Republican names. Senator Javits said it would be silly to say that our prestige has not declined. The Rockefeller brothers fund in 1958 hit it. Nelson Rockefeller's hit it. The Gaither committee and other committees appointed by the President, himself, have made this very, very clear. We've had several outstanding generals leave the service, who have no party, have made this very same point - that we are not doing enough in providing for an adequate military posture. I say to you that all of these matters relate to the real issue in this campaign; that is, that we're doing something less than our best at home and abroad.
     McGEE. Well, there you have in broad outline the conflicting positions taken by each side. I would expect that each will attack the other and defend itself in their unrestricted debate which is coming up.

     McGEE. To continue with our debate, here is Vice President Nixon's campaign director, Mr. Robert Finch.
     Mr. FINCH. Well, Senator Kennedy obviously has the same problem as his national chairman just indicated - the one of speaking in generalities. When he gets down to specifics and leaves criticism in generalities, he's in trouble, as he was on Quemoy-Matsu and when he tried to outline a farm program. Kennedy talks about movement - his "peristalsis speech." If Jack would come down off his beanstalk and talk about the world of reality where we all have to fight and survive and earn our way, we could find out how much his program would be in taxes, and how it would affect the cost of living, what he would do abroad to help this prestige problem he talks about - whether he means prestige as popularity, or respect - we would find out which of his supporters' philosophy he really believes in - Walter Reuther or Lyndon Johnson, Eastland or Adam Clayton Powell, Humphrey or Talmadge, Pat Brown or Faubus.
     He tries to speak out of both sides of the platform at the same time, and I think he has to address himself specifically to these problems, instead of talking generally about movement and representing the "mixed doubles" that he does.
     Governor RIBICOFF. Well, this is very interesting to me, because in the final analysis, if you analyze the campaigns of both men, you have Jack Kennedy saying this to the American people: "I trust you. I respect you. You are intelligent. I want to discuss the problems that face us as a people in the 1960's both home and abroad."
     I think what Jack is really doing is taking the American people to the peaks of reality and Mr. Nixon is really taking the American people into a valley of illusion. And this is why Jack is talking about the problems - of economic problems at home. This is why Jack is talking about the international problems - the problems of prestige. And as the campaign has developed this has become very obvious, because the Kennedy campaign is a specific campaign. They're specific around the country; they're specific every time he meets Mr. Nixon. They are the specifics that he is discussing, and this is what is making the impact on the American people.
     McGEE. Senator Morton.
     Senator MORTON. Well, I must say that I think it's the American people that are taking this Nation to a peak of reality under the leadership that it has today in this country and under the leadership that I'm sure it will have for the next 4 years. It's the American people that have driven this economy to an alltime high. It's the American people who have driven employment to an alltime high. It's the American people who have increased the share that the wage earner - the producer - gets of our total income from 62 percent to 70 percent in the last 8 years. I'm tired of these percentage figures about Russia and so forth. I don't - never tried to eat percentage points. I never tried to make a suit out of percentage points. I know this, that, if we want to emulate Russia, as many Democratic spokesmen say we should (we should worry about their great growth) we've got to do the greatest destructive job ever done in this country - tear up two-thirds of our railroad tracks, tear up three-quarters of our highways, destroy 19 out of 20 automobiles, seal up 90 percent of our gas wells, destroy 9 out of every 10 ships in our merchant fleet, and destroy 80 percent of our homes and all the rest of us move into the other 20 percent. I don't think the American people are that anxious to emulate Russia, and I say it's the American people that have built this economy under this leadership, and I say they want more of the same leadership to continue an expanding economy such as we have today.
     McGEE. Senator Jackson.
     Senator JACKSON. Well, all I want to say. No one is trying to emulate Russia. We in the Democratic Party and Senator Kennedy and Senator Johnson want to be ahead and surpass the Soviet Union. We are now behind in certain critical areas. It's a cold, hard truth. All you have to do is listen to outstanding Republican leaders speak in the area of national security. They're ahead of us in the intercontinental ballistic missile field. They're ahead of us in space, and they're moving rapidly in the area of economic growth; and unless we do more than we've been doing, we're going to be in serious trouble. The proof of it lies in the fact that our friends abroad are getting worried. The truth is that the administration has all this information. They've got poll after poll that they will not make public. You can be sure that, if they wanted to make these polls public, on the question of prestige, that would be helpful to them, they'd make them public. Mr. Nixon indicated in the last broadcast that he would make one of them public. So far, it's not been made public, and I submit that the American people realize and they are fully aware that this
Nation of ours is in deep trouble.
     McGEE. Mr. Finch.
     Mr. FINCH. Well, again, the Senator criticizes, but he doesn't talk pacificall - specifically about what they - the Democratic Party and Senator Kennedy - would do: Now, I'd like to defer to Senator Morton, because he was with the State Department at one time, about the so-called reports. But to throw out generally, make the general statement that the Russians lead us in space simply isn't true. For example, we have launched 26 earth satellites up to 1960. The Russians have launched six. Certainly there's a difference in thrust, but we have 13 satellites still in orbit; the Russians have one. We have recovered two satellite payloads from outer space and they have recovered one. Now, just to throw out these generalizations they're ahead of us simply isn't true, and this has been characteristic of Senator Kennedy all the way through this campaign
     Senator JACKSON. Let's be specific. I like to be specific on this. I've been pacifi - specific and I lay it right on the line. The cold, hard truth is that they beat us to the intercontinental ballistic missile. The cold, hard truth is that it was the Democrats in the Senate that warned that we were going to be licked in the ICBM race. In a letter of June 30, 1955, to the President of the United States, signed by myself and Senator Anderson in a top secret document, which has since been declassified, we laid it on the line, and we were completely right and warned that they were going to beat us. Now, it's been the Democratic - Democrats in the Congress that have added funds for defense in the key and critical areas relating to such vital weapons systems as Minuteman, and the Polaris weapon system. The truth is that the administration now wants to take credit for Polaris, but we've added over half of the funds above and beyond the budget requests of this administration for those weapon systems. We have had to push constantly in these various weapon systems in order to get any kind of action.
     Senator MORTON. The truth of the business is that under the Democratic administration that preceded this one, you didn't do one thing in the field of the great rocket - the heavy thrust rocket that was required. The truth of the business is that the German scientists taken by the Russians did a job there. We didn't do a job there. We found ourselves with a terrific lag there and we've caught up and caught up in spite of the fact that we started from way behind. We haven't caught up in the heavy thrust rocket yet, but in all other areas we have. And certainly in the capacity to hit anything on this earth, we have caught up with anything that they've done, in spite of the poor start that - we're spending more money a minute today than you used
to spend in the Democratic administration in a month or a year. With a---
     Senator JACKSON. Well, now Mr. Morton, I want to comment on that point, if I may---
     McGEE. Gentlemen, gentlemen, please.
     Senator JACKSON. I want to comment on that point, if I may.
     McGEE. Senator Jackson, Senator Jackson. I'm sorry, sir. You're speaking out of turn. It's perfectly all right with me, if it's all right with your partner and the other panelmen.
     Governor RIBICOFF. Well, you go ahead.
     McGEE. I must say this. Chairman Morton has a minute and 45 seconds coming from an earlier response that was being made by Mr. Finch, when he deferred to the chairman. So, Mr. Morton, if you would like to continue at this point.
     Senator MORTON. Well, then I want to get into this question of these polls that you're talking about releasing. Now, if your going to release everything and make it public - all reporting from our foreign posts, outposts overseas, whether it be a poll conducted by some third level officer in the USIA, or whether it be some assistant secretary - political secretary or attaché at one of our embassies - you're going to cut off all reporting. Now, certainly Governor Ribicoff, who served on the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House, knows that we've got to have freedom of reporting from our posts back here. And this matter of prestige is whether it's a popularity contest or whether it's a matter of respect. The British empire - the United Kingdom - which got - led the free world - the word in the 19th century was unpopular at times and we're going to have to be unpopular at times to stand on principle. As Secretary Dulles pointed out, we're not in this game to win a popularity contest. And I think that should be borne in mind.
     Governor RIBICOFF. Well, I think, Senator, you miss the point. While the American people want our reporting to be on a confidential basis, still, since there has been an issue concerning America's prestige, the American people are entitled to know the truth because it is only if we know the truth can we know why we are being asked to take certain courses of conduct. Now these USIA reports are reports that this administration initiated, this administration has carried out, and for the life of me I cannot help but - I cannot understand why they are kept from the American people. Now, I have here this morning's New York Herald Tribune, which says "Admission of Big Fall in Prestige Is Bared. Probe Heard, USIA Chief Cite Now-Secret Polls Last January. Mr. Allen agreed with the Republican questioner [who was Congressman Chenoweth] that the United States had suffered a tremendous loss of prestige because of the Soviet space feats." Now, here is from this morning's Washington Post, "U.S. Prestige Slip Seen in Poll of Five Major Allies. The report prepared by the U.S. Information Agency indicates that, while the prestige of the Soviet Union is going up, that prestige of the United States is down and is continuing to decline." And this was a document completed less than 3 weeks ago, October 10. Now, what Jack Kennedy is saying to the American people - we must move, that what this country must do is be first. This is a strong country; this is a powerful country; but this country has to be first now, and we must take all possible actions to keep us first, not only in space, not only in missiles, but first in the Olympic games. This is the basic philosophy of Jack Kennedy.
     McGEE. Senator Morton.
     Senator MORTON. Well, I - may I comment on the report that you read from the Washington Post this morning. Now, if you'll read further down, you'll find that the question was asked: Who has launched - which country has launched the most satellites into space - the United States or Russia? Forty-nine percent of the people queried said that Russia had; 16 percent said the United States; and the balance didn't know. Now, the facts are that we have launched some four times as many satellites into space as the Russians. It just shows that we haven't gotten that story across. Public opinion has not yet been acquainted with that story. One of the reasons it hasn't is that, under the leadership of Senator Johnson, we've had some pretty severe cuts in our UIA budget. We had one, in fact, the very year after the first sputnik was put into space - a very severe cut. But, remember this, that when the facts prove one thing and public opinion doesn't even - isn't even acquainted with those facts it shows just how facetious and how shallow those polls are, and those - that was what that poll showed - 40 percent thought that the Russians had put more satellites into orbit than we had, and 16 percent thought - so that they were completely uninformed. Now, when public opinion becomes informed, of course, it changes. And if you try to measure prestige by the - by the amount of information that a - the people of a certain country have at a certain time, that's a very, very shallow way to run a foreign policy in this country. And I think it departs from all the tenets completely.
     McGEE. Senator Jackson.
     Senator JACKSON. Well, I think, Mr. Morton misses the whole point. America has been known throughout the world as a leader in the field of industry, science, and technology. And it comes as a great shock to our allies and friends everywhere in the world to find that the Nation that's always been in the lead in industry, science, and technology suddenly slips behind. As far as space vehicles are concerned, it must be remembered that the Soviets have made the spectacular shots, and while my colleagues on the opposite side sort of slide off the question of thrust, thrust is all-important because it deals with vital weapons capability. And thrust has made it possible for the Soviets to launch these spectacular vehicles into orbit weighing many, many, many times more than anything that we've done. It is true, we have put into orbit some very refined scientific devices, but because of our failure to do the job in the intercontinental ballistic missile field, we did not develop the thrust that we should have developed. And I want to make the record clear on this question of the history of it.
     During the Truman administration, we did a lot in the area of missiles. We had the Germans over here. We had most of the Germans, headed by Von Braun and others, and the record should disclose that the real problem that we had at that time was the warhead. We could not put a thermonuclear warhead in the ICBM. But the administration in 1953 and from that time on knew the Soviets were testing long-range ballistic missiles, but did not give this system the highest priority until we Democrats in the Congress called upon the President to do something about it. And only then, did he act; and that was in the middle of 1955. And it took a year later to get a missile czar to run the program. And so the truth of the matter is that our friends are worried abroad because America has been slipping in the area where we've always been ahead. No wonder they are concerned. And prestige relates to a state of mind - what they think of us, which way were going. The Gallup poll clearly indicated over a year ago that our allies and friends abroad said that at the rate we're going, the Soviets would be ahead of us in industry, technology, science, and in the military field.
     McGEE. Mr. Finch.
     Mr. FINCH. Well, I'll leave to Senator Morton the question of the historical accuracy, but on this business of prestige, it's not tantamount to popularity and what the Gallup poll shows, in my opinion, with respect to the job the United States has in leading the free world. What we need and what we are - what we have achieved through President Eisenhower's leadership is respect. That's enabled us to keep the peace, to put out these brush-fire war situations around the country during the last 8 years. And I would just suggest on that point that we compare what the people around the world think of this administration as against the time that President Truman left in terms of world prestige. You're not loved when you do a job of leadership, and I'm not concerned about our popularity. We have been respected. We will continue to be respected if we don't make stupid mistakes, such as was suggested by Kennedy's position on Quemoy-Matsu, Cuba, and the like.
     McGEE. Senator Morton has the remaining time, if he chooses.
     Senator MORTON. Well, I would just like to add this one point. You talk about prestige, and here, according to Senator Jackson, we're so far behind in everything - scientific development and everything else - it's amazing to me that people all over this world are clamoring to get into the United States of America, and not many people are clamoring to get into Russia. And, in fact, they have barbed wire up to keep their people from getting out. Now, if that isn't a measure of some degree of prestige, I don't know what is.
     McGEE. Governor Ribicoff.
     Governor RIBICOFF. Well, I was interested in Mr. Finch's remarks about President Eisenhower.
     We all respect President Eisenhower, but this election campaign is between a man by the name of Jack Kennedy and a man by the name of Richard Nixon, and I would like to talk for a few minutes about some of the domestic issues that face us. As a Governor, I'm aware of many problems on the State level. While these problems internationally are important, we do have problems, and I think we ought to start discussing these for a few minutes.
     You take the problem of whether a minimum wage of $1.25 an hour is enough. The Republicans feel that it's too much. I can't understand how anybody who works for a livelihood is entitled to less than $1.25 an hour. Mr. Kennedy is in favor of $1.25 minimum wage. Mr. Nixon is against it.
     You take the problem of medical care for the aging. The Vice President, Mr. Nixon, is for the present plan which throws a fantastic burden on the Federal Government as well as on the States. Even Governor Rockefeller, of New York, has rejected - out of hand - the present Republican proposal - the so-called paupers' oath - as against the Democratic proposal of self-respect and dignity under the social security program.
     Then, of course, there is the problem of aid to education. This is greatly important because this is a problem affecting all our States and communities. It would seem to me that here, again, Mr. Kennedy recognizes that the key to education is the teachers, because the way you get an education is out of an inspired and dedicated teacher, and not out of a fancy-face brick or a soft chair in an auditorium. And if we are going to solve the problem in education, it must be solved, it must be solved by attracting more and better teachers to the teaching profession. So here we have some of the domestic issues that divide the candidates, and I think they are mighty important for the people of this country.
     McGEE. Senator Morton.
     Senator MORTON. Well, I agree with the Governor that domestic issues are very important, but I don't agree with his solution of them by any means.
     Now, let's take this minimum wage. The question of the minimum wage is one of the five things that Senator Kennedy said in Los Angeles that had to be put through at the special session of Congress. I think most - an overwhelming majority of the Members of both the House and Senate wanted a minimum wage bill. Senator Kennedy didn't get anything done. He picked up his papers and walked out of the conference. Senator Kennedy at the head of his party showed great leadership in that special session.
     He came in with five programs and he ended up with no runs, no hits, and five errors. You talk about the schools. We've had a program for Federal aid to education. I cosponsored one back in 1947, at the request of Senator Taft. It was the same bill that he put in the Senate. He got it through the Senate. We never got it through the House. I joined with Dick Nixon and Chris Herter and others back in 1949 on the question of this medi-care a long - many years ago. And we had a program - not the one that this Congress passed, but the one that the Democrats - substantially, the one that the Democrats rejected - a program offered by Senator Javits of New York.
     Now, it's a question of whether you're going to - in this education field - whether you're going to start paying teachers' salaries at the Federal level. That's the basic difference between the Kennedy proposal and the proposal of this administration and the proposal of Dick Nixon - whether you're going to start paying teachers' salaries at the Federal level. I say to you, that, once you start that, then there's no end to it; and sooner or later, your whole teacher system is going to be under some sort of a Federal civil service proposition, and it's going to be taken away from the control of the local school districts, which, I think, is one of the strengths of our educational system - is that we do control it locally. And I say, that the tax dollar that's spent closest to home is the best-spent tax dollar, and that's what our program is for - the solution of these many problems which, I admit, exist, and which must be solved on the domestic scale.
     McGEE. Do you agree, Senator Jackson?
     Governor RIBICOFF. May I take this, Mr. Jackson, because here we have a very important problem, and this is very important to all our States - Connecticut, Mississippi, California - all the States of the Union. Basically, it will be grants to the States to be distributed by the States. Now, Senator Taft was for this bill in 1947, but what Mr. Morton fails to recognize, that since 1950, we have had a program in which there are contributions and grants to the States covered by federally defense impacted areas. And since this program started, $2 billion have gone into the States; 4,000 school districts in the United States have received this aid; $688 million have gone for such purposes as paying teachers' salaries. Much of this money has come into Connecticut and practically every State in the Union. As a Governor for 6 years, not once has the Federal Government ever come to Connecticut and told us what the teachers should teach, what our teaching program should be, what books we should use; and we have never felt in Connecticut - and I have never found a Governor in the 50 States - who has said that the Federal Government has told the States how to handle their $2 billion of Federal grants. So this is one of the great "trumperies" of this campaign - that the Federal Government is going to take its long hand into the States because the States - all of us in federally impacted areas are now receiving grants; we have been receiving them since 1950; and the Federal Government has not told us what to do in the States.
     McGEE. Senator Jackson. There are 45 seconds remaining in this section if you would like to comment.
     Senator JACKSON. Yes, I just want to make this supplementary remark on this particular point; namely, that there's a clear-cut issue here in the area of medical care. The Republicans do not want to place medical care under social security. We in the Democratic Party want it under social security because it treeps-teets-treats the rich and the poor alike. We anticipate 10, 15, or 20 years from now, the Republicans will support that program. They opposed social security when it was passed - 10, 15, 20 years later, they support it. They are in favor of retroactive progress. I think the record is clear on this.
     Teachers' salary - the question is very simple. We leave it to the States to decide whether they want to use Federal funds for teachers' salaries. We feel this is more flexible, less rigid than the Republican program. The Republican program places restrictions on the State in the use of the funds for that purpose.
     McGEE. Mr. Finch.
     Mr. FINCH. Well, the discussion of both the Governor and the Senator is again very glib and sounds very good. The heart of the problem is the very schizophrenia that afflicts the whole Democratic Party. When Governor Ribicoff says the domestic issues divides the country, they divide his party. And the whole thing is exemplified in the very difference between their candidate for President and Vice President. Kennedy and Johnson have opposed each other on 264 rollcall issues during the 10 years they've served the same body of Congress.
     They've - the basic problems of States rights, the basic problem of how much the Federal Government. comes in to intervene in individual lives - on civil rights, on labor, on the St. Lawrence Seaway, on Quemoy-Matsu they disagreed on their public statements, on whether they should - the President should express regrets to Khrushchev they disagreed. And this, to me demonstrates, as well as this last "rump" session of Congress, where Kennedy couldn't get anything through and that the Democratic Party can't deliver on these things that are glibly set out in the platform. We don't care which side they take, which side of the platform they want to argue from. Just take one side or the other, and then deliver on it. And they've demonstrated in "rump" session, when they had a majority of 2 to 1, that they couldn't do it. And I think it's dishonest to hold these things out and then not be able to deliver on it when their party is so basically split on these domestic issues.
     Governor RIBICOFF. I mean---
     McGEE. Governor Ribicoff.
     Governor RIBICOFF. I think this statement best exemplifies the Republican campaign. A lot of adjectives and looking toward the past. What we are looking for is the future - the 1960's. It is one thing when you have a President with great power and the power of the veto threatening a veto of most important measures. It is another thing when you have a man like Senator Kennedy who has great leadership qualities in the White House, where he can mobilize public opinion and bring the country in back of him on these programs. I know Senator Kennedy. He has been my friend since 1949. I know that Jack has a deep sense of dedication. Jack Kennedy is a man of deep intellect - a sense of historical perspective, and Jack Kennedy knows where this country should go and how to lead this country and give it great moral purpose. Now, Jack Kennedy as a President, Jack Kennedy, with Lyndon Johnson as a Vice President who would be there to assist Jack Kennedy, could bring the country along. And, as a matter of fact, on many of these programs, Jack Kennedy as a President I think would even get a few Republican votes on medical aid, on education, from men like - in addition to Senator Case - Thruston Morton, Senator Javits, and a few other Senators who would go along on programs such as this.
     McGEE. Senator Morton.
     Senator MORTON. Well, I'd have to see his program before I'd commit myself to going along with it, I'll guarantee you that. But I've known Jack Kennedy and I've known Dick Nixon, both, since January of 1947; and I don't certainly want to get into any personalities here and I'm not going to. But I can say that I've found Dick Nixon to be a man of great dedication and a man of leadership. He assumed a position of leadership in his first term in the House of Representatives. He was selected to go on the Herter committee, which was the committee that immediately - that went over there and was so interested in the original Marshall plan, and did so much for the passage of the enactment of the original Marshall plan, as you will recall, under a Republican Congress.
     Now, if you want to - you're talking about - Senator Jackson talks about going back, looking backward all the time. As I understand this campaign, what we're trying to do, or what Senator Kennedy's trying to do is to recapture the spirit of the thirties. Now, if that's not looking back, I don't know what is. Nine million unemployed out of a much smaller labor force than we have now in 1939 after 7½  years of President Roosevelt. Is that what we're trying to recapture? Is that the sort of negative thing that we're trying to recapture? Are we trying to go back to a farm program that's the program of price support through scarcity? Is that what we're trying to accomplish? I don't want to go back to the 1930's. I say that the American people have moved forward in the last 7½ years at the most rapid rate in the history of our country, and I say to you that we want the leadership to continue to move in that direction.
     McGEE. Senator Jackson.
     Senator JACKSON. Well, I'm very much interested in the comments of Mr. Finch and my colleague, Mr. - Senator Morton. You know, our party is a national party. The Republican Party isn't. We represent all of the United States. The Republican Party is and always has been a sectional party. And in the various areas of the West and the Middle West and the East, where the two-party system operates, they're all split up. You have Mr. Goldwater - Senator Goldwater is down in the South saying Nixon is going to turn to the right, right after election. You have Senator Scott going all over the North saying that he's going to be more liberal. And then, if you want to talk about division, I suggest that there be a summit meeting between Mr. Nixon and Mr. Lodge and decide on who's going to make the appointments. Mr. Lodge has been going around making the Cabinet appointments. Earlier he had announce that he favored the appointment of a very fine man as Ambassador to the Soviet Union, and we - we feel that Dr. Bunche is a very able man. He was put in by the Democrats. But you have the paradox of the two men who are running on the Republican ticket going off in opposite tangents. And, if there's a split, it's in the Republican Party.
     Now, Mr. Finch is worried about being specific. We're being specific. We want medical care for our senior citizens under social security. Where do you stand? You don't want it under social security. You want a "means test." We don't believe in a "means test." We think rich and poor should be treated alike. Now, let's talk about these specific issues. You can say whether you want it under social security or whether you don't. Now, the truth is that the Republicans opposed social security, until they found that it was accepted by the American people. They called it socialism, being unable to distinguish between socialism and social progress. I'm glad that it got to these specific issues. We've tried to be specific, and I'd appreciate some more comment on these specific points.
     McGEE. Mr. Finch.
     Mr. FINCH. Well, the core of the philosophy that the Vice President has expressed in terms of his own medical program is that it must be a voluntary program. The tying it to social security makes it a compulsory program. If you - if you inject compulsion into the relationship between a doctor and his patient, you're going to reduce, across the board, the level of medical care. This is the core of the program and, actually, putting it on a voluntary basis, you include more people under the Vice President's program than you do because you have - under the other program because there are fewer covered under social security than there would be under the voluntary program. I think the experience in Britain shows what happens when you try to inject compulsion into medical care. And, after all, there are some people who follow a religious practice in this country who don't believe in this kind of - are you going to impose these standards on them? This goes again to the heart of the philosophy of the two men. We believe in the voluntary way. We don't think they'd go to the Federal Government with all these problems. And I think that the American people believe this, too.
     McGEE. Governor Ribicoff.
     Governor RIBICOFF. I think Mr. Finch really confuses the issue because we are not talking about what the doctors should do and how the doctor shall work. What we are talking about is making payments under the social security system and each older person can choose any doctor of their own choice, or any hospital. There is a philosophy here involved, and a basic philosophy. It's the basic philosophy of social security, which was fought out in 1935, and which was passed by a Democratic Congress under a Democratic leader over the overwhelming opposition of the Republican Party.
     Now, Senator Morton talks about the thirties. May I remind Senator Morton about the late twenties, when we had a crash and an indifference from a Republican administration toward people and their problems and how you solve them. And we had a President, Franklin D. Roosevelt, who thought that people were important and that you act in social security, and unemployment compensation, and measures in the social welfare field. Now, these were constantly opposed by the Republican Party, but when they came into power after their opposition, cries of socialism, they did not authorize their repeal. However, they continuously fight against extension of the social security program, which is an accepted means in the United States by both parties today - how to handle some of the problems of old age, some of the problems of our children and widows who survive the death of their husbands. Now, what we are talking about in medical aid is a program that doesn't degrade the people of our country, that doesn't make them take a pauper's oath, that doesn't have a welfare worker snooping around into their homes, that doesn't make it necessary for a man and wife who have spent all their lives and have two or three thousand dollars in the bank, who have paid off their mortgage, to sell their home and liquidate their bank accounts. We are saying that these people, who their labors and efforts built up this economy, will make their small contributions, matched by their employers', in this large insurance social security fund, and then when they are sick and infirm under these circumstances, they will get payments. They will choose their own doctors and their own hospitals, and they will retain their self-respect, and they need not go and raise their right hand and say they are paupers.
     McGEE. Senator Morton.
     Senator MORTON. Well, in the first place, I think we've beaten this social security approach to death. Just remember this, that 9 - that 9 percent will be the social security take in a very few years, and if we load everything that comes along on to social security, if we load every burden that comes along on social security, there's no telling where that take will go from both the worker and from the employer. And you're bound to have a spiraling cost of living and increased prices if you continue to load everything on to the social security program. Now, Senator Jackson pointed out and tried to insinuate this great division in the Republican Party and that we weren't a national party. Well, I can tell him something; he's going to think it's going to be a national party the day after election because in the area where he thinks we have no party, we're going to pick up a substantial number of votes. But it seems to me perfectly ridiculous to try to point out that we are the divided party, when it is so obvious that the opposition is the divided party. I had the pleasure yesterday of spending the entire day in Governor Ribicoff's beautiful State, and it is beautiful this time of year, the great State of Connecticut - and I drove through town after town up there and I saw Republican headquarters where Nixon and Lodge were played up jointly, and I saw Democratic headquarters without a single vestige of any publicity about Senator Johnson at all. Now, it's unquestionably true that the division is there; and I have, as you may know, suggested a sixth debate, in fact, one between Senators Kennedy and Johnson, so that the American people will know just what interpretation to place on this credit-card government that's been promised in the Democratic platform.
     Governor RIBICOFF. May I have 10 minutes - 10 seconds of Senator Jackson's---
     Senator JACKSON. Well, may I - may I---
     McGEE. If Senator Jackson is willing. Senator Jackson, may he---
     Senator JACKSON. Could I just finish this, Governor Ribicoff ? Just this one point. Maybe Mr. Morton can, explain the differences between the two candidates that are running. The Vice President presidential nominee, Mr. Lodge, goes into Harlem and says he's going to appoint a Negro; he goes down South, changes his mind, and Mr. Nixon says he knows nothing about it. Now, is he to make the appointments? What kind of unity do you call that? I think it's pretty clear that they're hopelessly divided; and I just want to finish this other point on social security. You keep talking about our program is compulsory. Don't you realize that under the Nixon program its compulsory? The Federal Government must levy taxes to provide grant-in-aid to the States. The States have to put up money. They're already overburdened. Do my colleagues on the Republican side want to make social security on a voluntary basis? They have opposed the basic reforms in social security. We had an amendment up in 1955-56 to provide permanent disability insurance for those people who become totally and permanently disabled. Eighty-four percent of the Republicans in the U.S. Senate voted against it. Only one Senator, only one Republican Senator voted for the original Social Security Act. Now, who are we kidding? The Republican program is compulsory. It levies a tax on all of our citizens. The Democratic program under Senator Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson is a program that's fair and just because every citizen has an opportunity to contribute to it and they've paid for it. And I submit that is an entirely erroneous statement when you say that your program is not compulsory and ours is. Levying of taxes out of the general funds of the Treasury is compulsory on all citizens.
     McGEE. Forty-five seconds of Democratic time remaining.
     Governor RIBICOFF. Well, I just want to comment, since Senator Morton has talked about our State. You're always welcome, Thruston. The Vice President and all Republicans are welcome. May I point out to you that, while you were in Connecticut yesterday, Lady Bird Johnson, the wife of Lyndon Johnson, was in Connecticut, too; and she talked to some 2,000 women in Hartford; that Lyndon Johnson came into Connecticut the first week of the campaign, and he had a rousing welcome and we greeted him. Lyndon Johnson is always welcome in Connecticut. He is a great man; will make a great Vice President. And we Democrats in Connecticut, as well as in Texas, are proud of Lyndon Johnson and very, very happy that he is on our ticket.
     McGEE. Thank you, gentlemen. In just a moment we will hear the closing summations.

     McGEE. Now, during the course of the debate, we have gained a little time; therefore, the closing summations will be extended to 3 minutes for each side. The first summation is for the Democrats by Senator Henry Jackson.
     Senator JACKSON. Under the Nixon administration and Nixon leadership, we have been doing something less than our best at home and abroad. In the area of national security, one of the first things that this administration did in 1953, Charles Wilson as the Secretary of Defense, was to cut Mr. Lovett's budget, Robert Lovett, then Secretary of Defense, a Wall Street banker and an outstanding Republican (and, incidentally, we Democrats do not hesitate to bring in Republicans into our administration area of national security, something that this administration has not done, except in one or two isolated instances), the first thing that the administration did in 1953 was to cut the budget - over $5 billion - in the area of national defense. No wonder we're behind in the ICBM race. No wonder we lost out when the Soviets beat us in 1957. The second point I want to make is that much has been talked about on this program and in the debate during the course of the race for the Presidency about our successes and how well we're doing.
     Just think of the Vice President being stoned in Venezuela, the President being humiliated in Paris, the President being stopped from going to Japan. I want to ask the American people: How many more successes of this kind can we afford? Certainly, every thoughtful American knows that our prestige has been declining. At home, we have the problem of our economy in decline. Due to mismanagement of the economy by this administration, we have had three recessions - the recession before last (not counting the one we're in now) cost the Federal Treasury almost $13 billion in a deficit. This administration ran up the largest peacetime deficit in history. Talk about fiscal responsibility, they've not been fiscally sound, and they're allowing our economy to decline, ladies and gentlemen, at a time when the Soviets are working around the clock. We can't afford to have steel at 52 or 53 percent of capacity; and I submit that America must do a job at home if we're going to have the respect, especially of the uncommitted nations. We must do a better job in education. We must do a better job in the conservation of our resources. And we must do a better job for all of our people so that we will lead the kind of image to uncommitted nations that they will want to follow us and not the Soviet world.
     McGEE. Now, to sum up for the Republicans, Senator Thruston Morton.
     Senator MORTON. The question that I think the American electorate faces is the question that I posed at the outset of this program: Which man is best qualified to provide the leadership that is necessary in these troubled times? Now then, Senator Kennedy goes all around the country, and he's saying we've got to do this, we've got to do that, and he never says how we're going to do it. He goes to Niagara Falls and he says, one thing we must do is redistribute the defense production.
     When he was in San Diego, however, he said, we must see that this great defense production - capacity that we have here is fully utilized. By redistributing it, I wonder if he means taking from Senator Jackson's State and from Seattle, the great Boeing operation, and scattering it throughout the United States. He talks one way in one section of the country, one way in another. He expresses this great feeling and sympathy for all of these needs. Yet, here are a few statistics that I think might well be a part of the record of this proceeding. The Senate Subcommittee on Problems of the Aged and Aging, of which he is a member, has held 20 meetings - one of them in his home town of Boston - and he's attended none of them. The Senate Subcommittee on Disarmament has held 19 meetings in the past 2 years. He's a member, and he's attended none. He is the chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on African Affairs. He's not called a meeting in the last 15 months. On the Joint Economic Committee, Jack Kennedy is a member. He has not attended one of 54 meetings held since March 20, 1959, and he's telling us what's wrong with our economy. On the Senate Labor Subcommittee, he's held four hearings on situs picketing - one of the things that he said he was going to put through the Congress - and he, as a member, has attended just one of those four hearings. Now, I submit that that's not the type of leadership that the American people want. I submit that he doesn't possess the qualities of leadership that these times demand. They say what they will about the percentage of steel capacity. What peacetime year in which - has there been a peacetime year in which we have produced more steel in tons - I'm not talking percentage points, I'm talking tons - than we've produced - will have produced here in the year 1960? The American people, themselves, have built this economy, under this leadership, with the greatest progress that mankind has ever seen, and I think the American people are going to want more of the same.
     McGEE. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you Senator Morton, and Senator Jackson in San Antonio, and Governor Ribicoff, here with us in Washington, and Mr. Robert Finch. In a moment we will have news of next week's program.

     McGEE. Next Saturday - just 2 days before election day - we will bring you the final report in this series on "The Campaign and the Candidates." Next Saturday, you will see and hear the peak moments of the last 2 weeks of intensive campaigning, and this will be arranged so that you are given, side by side, the views expressed by the two candidates, themselves, as they travel across the United States. And we have also focused our cameras on one large American city to show the massive effort being made by both parties - Republican and Democratic - to register Americans as voters - a program that has resulted in helping bring about the largest registration in the Nation's history. And we also will have a unique film report obtained by assigning camera crews to each of the candidates and asking them to film virtually every move the candidates made on a given day. This film will show the tremendous strain of the campaign - its nagging moments as well as its moments of elation and happiness - in a day in their hectic campaign lives. And we will have, next Saturday at this time, a final evaluation from the NBC correspondents who have been assigned to cover the campaigns of the president and vice presidential candidates - an assignment that began in what now seems to be a far away September. Frank McGee, NBC News.

     ANNOUNCER (on cue). "The Campaign and the Candidates."

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