Mr. CRONKITE. Hello, Senator.
     Senator JOHNSON. Hello, Walter, glad to have you.
     Mr. CRONKITE. Very good indeed to be out here in the hills of Texas this day. On the question of illustrious predecessors in Texas' political history, I know your father was five times a State legislator, your grandfather was the secretary of state, and this history runs back to both branches of the family. Your mother's grandfather, I believe you told me, was the pastor to Sam Houston. You were born right here in this valley, and your grandfather said when you were born, "This morning a Senator was born." He seemed to be rather farsighted, but I suppose some of your Democratic partisan friends feel he was shortsighted and missed by at least one high Federal position.
     Senator, before we get into the deeper stuff, there is one thing I have been wondering just a little bit about, this L.B.J. initials, your wife's initials, your two daughters' initials, the beagle hound's initials are L.B.J.
     Senator JOHNSON. I think that is a coincidence, Walter; Lady Bird, my wife's name, is a nickname. She is really Claudia Taylor. My name is Lyndon Baines, and my oldest daughter is named Lynda Bird, after her father and mother, and Lucy Baines, the youngest daughter, is named after my favorite aunt.
     Mr. CRONKITE. This wasn't the house you were born in actually?
     Senator JOHNSON. No; I was born down the road about a halfmile. One of my friends. observed the other day that I had gone a long way in the world, I had moved up the river about 400 yards.
     Mr. CRONKITE. This is part of the old family ranch?
     Senator JOHNSON. Yes; my grandfather came here in the late fifties, and we have been here ever since.
     Mr. CRONKITE. Well, Senator, you represent to me something of the sort of ethnics of Texas, you are perhaps indigenous of Texas; you are tall, kind of rough in appearance as the hills of west Texas; do you feel a kind of spiritual kinship to this country of yours?
     Senator JOHNSON. I certainly do, Walter. This is the land I love, and I come here as often as I can. My great grandfather came to the capital side of the Republic of Texas. After he served in the Arkansas Legislature in the early forties, he was president of Baylor University in the Civil War period. He was Sam Houston's preacher in 1857. My grandfather came here in the late fifties. So for more than 100 years we have been living in these hills, and we love them.
     Mr. CRONKITE. Well, that gets me to a slightly more pointed question. What of a man who loves these hills and has this magnificent ranch and the vista that I see on the river, why would he want to take the time out to fight these hard and difficult battles in the distant, remote Washington, D.C.?
     Senator JOHNSON. Well, Walter, I think that we enjoy the time we spend here, but all of my life I have wanted to be a public servant as my father ahead of me was, and I grew up wanting to help people with their problems, and I get a satisfaction and sense of achievement in the constructive efforts on behalf of human beings that you can get in almost no other profession. I have been down in Washington 30 years come next year, and I think I would just be lost if I didn't work in some public field. If I couldn't be in public life, I would want to be a teacher, as I was before I entered public life, because I could have an influence on the minds of the young people and lead them in the directions that I would like to see them go. I have often said that if I had a boy, I would want him to be a politician or a preacher or a teacher, because they have a sense of achievement that comes from few other professions.
     Mr. CRONKITE. Well, now, it took you a little while to find this way of your life. You were here at the ranch, but you wanted to get away early in life. You went to work as a laborer. Your disappointed father succeeded in getting you back into Teachers' College. Why did you want to leave in the first place?
     Senator JOHNSON. Well, Walter, I didn't want to leave. I have worked all my life. As a little boy I shined shoes at the barbershop; as a printer's devil I worked out the paper on Thursday afternoon, the old Press. When I graduated from high school at 15, I wanted a job and there were not any jobs to be around here in 1924. So I took this fellow's advice and went West, young man, worked 2 years in California; finally I wound up in a lawyer's office. I came back home and mother talked me into going to college, and during the period I was in college I taught in a school down in south Texas. It gave me great satisfaction; I thought I wanted to be a teacher. When I finished college, I went to Houston and taught a year, and then a great opportunity in my life came to me when Congressman Kleberg, one of the owners of the King Ranch, asked me to go to Washington as his secretary in the Hoover administration in 1931, and except for a brief period of 15 months I have been in Washington ever since; 12 years in the House, 12 years in the Senate, 5 years as majority leader.
     Mr. CRONKITE. Had you given any thought to a political career before this appointment to go to Washington?
     Senator JOHNSON. Yes. Ever since they first told me of Grandpa's prediction, I had an ambition to be a U.S. Senator, and I took the steps that I thought were calculated to prepare me for work to make it possible for me to be elected.
     I was first elected to Congress when I was 28, in 1937. In 1941 Senator Sheppard died, and I ran to succeed him. I was defeated in a very close race by the then Governor of the State, W. Lee O'Daniel. He defeated me in 1941 by 1,311 votes out of more than a million. And then I waited until 1948, and when the then Senator O'Daniel decided not to run, I ran for his place and had a very close race, but I was elected, and I have been a Senator since that time.
     Mr. CRONKITE. This loss to W. Lee O'Daniel must have been a rather bitter one for you, your first major State race; what did you ascribe your loss to then?
     Senator JOHNSON. It wasn't bitter. I think that Governor O'Daniel is a very popular sort of figure, was at the time I was a very young man. I was unknown throughout the State. I had represented the district in central Texas, and I ran very surprisingly well at that age and with the resources at my command.
     Mr. CRONKITE. Senator, in this political career of yours - well, let's go back a bit. In Teachers' College you were a star debater. I think you led the White Star Debating Team against the Black Star, or something of the kind, and you seemed to knock them down most of the time you stood up against them. The Vice Presidential candidate on the Republican ticket has had a career in college, was noted for his ability to debate, and yet you two have gone sort of divergent paths in your political paths, certainly from the beginning, of debating. Your technique of leadership is considerably different. If I may I would like to quote from a chap from one observer quoting in your biography. "To be won over by Johnson is a rather overwhelming experience. The full treatment is an incredibly potent mixture of persuasion, badgering, cajoling, flattery, reminders of past favors and future advantages." That is a technique for leadership obviously.
     Senator JOHNSON. I would say that the fellow was more interested in the sentence structure than he was in accuracy. You don't deal with Senators that way. I think the only thing that is calculated to appeal to Members of the Senate is a presentation of the facts and the soundness of your logic. Nearly every Senator that takes the oath of office is elected on a platform of doing what is right, and your problem as leader is to convince them that the cause you represent is the right cause.
     Now, there is not a favor that you can do for a Senator that you can remind him of; there is no cajolery or flattery involved. That does not appeal to a man that is capable and worthy of representing one of the great States in the Union. They are not schoolboys, even though some of the fellows that write these things sometimes make them sound that way.
     I would say that I have tried to follow the old prophet, Isaiah's, advice: "Come, let us reason together." That course of action always appeals to reasonable men, and most Senators are reasonable. Sometimes the Republicans are a little more difficult for us Democrats than members of our party to reason with, but all of them are patriotic Members of the Senate, and they want to do what is best for their country, and once they are convinced that the course of action that you present is to the best interest of America, you usually have a lopsided vote in your vote.
     Mr. CRONKITE. Well, Senator, can you translate this attitude on the part of the Senators to the attitude on the part of the electorate at the polls, which was the sort of question I was getting around to; in other words, that which requires leadership in the Senate may not be the same factors that would succeed in winning office so that you would exercise that leadership; do you find that another technique is needed in addressing the people than in winning a point in Congress?
     Senator JOHNSON. No, I think that all of our people, regardless of party, want to participate in their Government and want to do what is best for their country. Now, no man's judgment on any given question is any better than his information on that question. Now, the problem of the candidate is to try to give the people all the information there is along these various issues, and that it what we are now engaged in. I have been speaking in more than 30 States since the campaign began, and I speak to them, to Democrats and Republicans, every day, and I don't try to speak to them as partisans; I try to speak to them as Americans, because they are eager and willing and yearning to be told the facts of their country and their Government, and if you give them the facts, they will make the proper decision.
     I don't think that this election has been determined yet by a long shot, and I think much remains to be done in the next 7 weeks, but in the end result the people will select the candidate and the party that the think will serve the greatest good for the greatest number.
     Mr. CRONKITE. Senator Johnson, when Franklin Delano Roosevelt decided he would select you as a bright young man to be the National Youth Administrator in Texas - and you were a very close personal friend of his; I know that he had a great influence, I am sure, on your political philosophy; who else do you think has been most influential in your life?
     Senator JOHNSON. My mother and my father, Senator Wirtz, former State senator, who is an outstanding lawyer in this State, Speaker Rayburn, who is my father's friend and who served with him in the legislature before I went to Washington, my wife, and, of course, my colleagues in the Senate, men like Senator Russell of Georgia, Senator Green of Rhode Island, the man who has nominated me to positions of leadership and who has counseled me through the years. They were men who sat on my policy committee and who say, stop, look, and listen occasionally, and help me plan a course that is calculated to best serve the best interests of all the country - men like Senator Hayden from Arizona, Congressman McCormack of Massachusetts - all of them have contributed a great deal to my understanding of the problems of Congress and my evolving a solution for the day-to-day work of the Senate.
     Mr. CRONKITE. Senator, since you were a protege, in a sense, of Franklin Delano Roosevelt in those early days of the New Deal with the NYA here, you were identified with the more liberal element of the Democratic Party in those days, and I think in recent years the identification has been more toward the conservative side; is this a kind of normal development of a man from the liberal to the conservative, and is this a tendency to continue in your own life, do you feel?
     Senator JOHNSON. I presume that we all become a little more prudent as we grow older, although I have never been very much of a believer in labels. I am a great admirer of President Roosevelt now, just as I was then. He hasn't changed in my viewpoint any. And as I engage in a little introspection, I haven't changed much. My philosophy is, I am a freeman first and an American second, U.S. Senator third, a Democrat fourth, in that order, and I am a member of the Democratic Party because I think that through the leadership of that party I can best see my philosophy translated into action. I believe my party cares more about the problems of the people of this country and is more concerned with helping them with their problems than is the Republican Party, and for that reason I am a Democrat, but I am a freeman, an American Senator first---
     Mr. CRONKITE. Senator---
     Senator JOHNSON. I don't go much for the labels of the "liberal" and "conservative," but I think you can be a progressive Senator and still be a prudent Senator. I don't think you have to be a wastrel. I think we demonstrated that in the Democratic Party by cutting twelve and a half billion dollars from the President's budget request. I think you can be a conservative Senator without being a reactionary Senator. Labels don't mean much to me; what I am interested in is: Is this piece of legislation or is this project or is this program good for my country; is it the right thing to do, and if it is good for my country, it is good for my party and, consequently, good for me.
     Mr. CRONKITE. Senator, the darkest day, I guess, in your life, came in 1955 when you had a heart attack. I am wondering how that experience affected your philosophy. I know that there are some who have talked to you in the Senate who said that before that they sort of felt you were a brash young politician, but after that they thought you became a politician's politician, that that was a turning point in a way; do you feel that yourself in a way?
     Senator JOHNSON. I think during the period of 60 days when I was away from the Senate Chamber I had time to reflect and really appreciate all the good people that I had known, how unworthy perhaps I had been of their devotion and friendship. I know that I never really recognized the fact that the Senators can be as good men as they demonstrated to me they were. I remember Senator Knowland wrote me every day I was in the hospital, and I had communications from every Senator in the South except one. A good many of them came to see me nearly every day, and it was their interest and their prayers that sustained me during that period when I was somewhat discouraged. But after the initial 2 months I came back to the ranch. I happened to observe that it had not affected my conduct in public business at all.
     As a matter of fact, I sometimes am amused when I think of the letter I received from President Eisenhower telling me that he had read in the paper about me and that he thought I was working a little too fast and he hoped I would slow down. That letter was sent to me without a signature by General Persons. General Persons said that it was the last letter dictated by the President the night before he had his heart attack. And he was lecturing me on slowing down a little bit just before he had his.
     Mr. CRONKITE. Senator, there has been a trend, a development, it seems, in the last few years, whether it is a trend or development or an accident of history, but we have been getting a great flow of exceedingly rich men in our political life - Harriman, Roosevelt, the others - do you feel that the day has come in our political history where it is almost impossible for a man of modest means to move into the top echelon?
     Senator JOHNSON. I don't think so at all. I think most men in Government are men of limited means. I think that throughout our history we have had men serving us as President and in the Senate, the Congress, that have been men of means and men that had to live entirely off the salary that was paid them for that position. I don't think it has changed any through the course of years. We have had some wealthy Presidents and some men that had to live on their salary entirely, as President Truman did. I think, except for his book, President Eisenhower is in the same situation.
     Mr. CRONKITE. Senator, I have got one here that sounds like a political question, I know, but I think people are asking the question and I would like to ask it of you. You are running for the Vice Presidency and for Senator. Isn't the fact that you are running for Senator at the same time, doesn't that indicate a lack of confidence in the vice presidential position?
     Senator JOHNSON. No; I don't think so. I think that is done very often. Members of the House run for the Senate, or Members of the Senate come back and run for Governor; members who are Governors frequently run for the Senate. In my State Franklin D. Roosevelt and John Garner were the winningest ticket the Democrats ever had. They carried every State in the Union in 1936 except Maine and Vermont. They never had such a winning ticket before. But Mr. Garners name was on the ticket because he had a seniority position that was very important to his State. As a matter of fact, his colleagues had elected him Speaker of the House at the same time that he was on the ticket for Vice President - an identical situation to what you have here.
     Mr. CRONKITE. Senator, we only have a little time, a half-minute as a matter of fact. I wonder if you can just quickly sum up what you consider the role of the Vice President is today under modern conditions.
     Senator JOHNSON. Under the Constitution he is the presiding officer of the Senate, and then any other assignments that the President cares to give him, of course, he takes on. I would think that the assignment would depend upon his experience and his background. I have been in Washington 30 years, and my experience has been primarily in the field of defense and space and foreign relations, and my leadership role has made it necessary and important that I participate in all the major defense and foreign policy decisions of the last 10 years, and I think that that experience will determine what assignments the President gives me.
     Mr. CRONKITE. Thank you very much, Senator Lyndon Johnson.